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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is my first post here, so thank you in advance for any help. I have a an '80-242 as stated above with the CIS system 4spd manual with elec. O/D. The car will start but run and idle poorly unless it is revved up considerably. It has always started hard but does not clear up once warm like it used to. I did a little imaginative engineering to the fuel pump relay... and substituted a 40 amp headlight relay. I figured out which wires make the high pressure pump run not sure what 3 blue wires do but the engine ran similarly to above unless power was supplied to them. I replaced cap & rotor as well as plugs but did not get a chance to check the wires as I was racing the sun. I have removed the strainer from the in-tank pump and replaced the little rubber hose that connects pump to fuel outlet pipe. The car was running only off the high pressure pump for short while due to the above problem and now makes a whining noise but has operated OK for last 10K miles. I am not interested in making the car perfect as far as the initial start problems are concerned; just making it drivable.
 

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be careful with relays as one is normal SPST "horn relay" but the other is SPDT and acts as a latching relay when starter motor going

big problem with start is pumps dont run till starter motor is turned and that is worst time to try to get fuel press up to 70 PSI to open injectors [ie lucky if getting 8 volts while cranking engine]

so there is an accumulator on top of main pump to try to retain pressure overnite - fat chance
and other reason you need press is there is a solenoid operated injector which is only on while cranking

if you understand elec diagrams just do as I did and put in a switch to run for say 5 seconds before starting to crank so as to get pressure restored - it should start first pop

if it starts but no "choke" then that is the WUR [warm up regulator] and I'll bet its little strainer is blocked

I can go into more details if you want but please indic if yo is conversant with electrics, as this system is not only cunning but volvo devious
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Doc, I think I am chasing an intake manifold leak, my modification to the fuel pump relay allows it to run as soon as the key is turned to the on position. I changed the injector O-rings yesterday and made some improvement to the idle situation howver the car now runs like there is no vacuum advance. I can spray WD-40 around the intake flange and get a slight improvement in the idle characteristics. (This is how I found the bad injector seals). Unfortunately I don't have a vacuum guage to check, I will try to borrow one before I yank the intake off. I checked the auxilliary air valve and cold start injector, both seem to operate properly... at least the CSV wasn't running after the car was hot and the AAV closed completely. Are there any other devices that may have a ruptured diaprhagm that could cause a vacuum leak? I can chase down electrical problems and have a fairly good understanding of the different systems on the car. Thank you again for any advice.
 

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Bypassing the fuel pump relay so that it runs whenever the key is on is dangerous, as fuel will be pumped out under pressure in the event of an accident. But that's another issue.
Besides hard start and rough idle you didn't say what else was wrong.
CIS Lambda rough idle problems are almost always due to vacuum leaks. I think you're on the right track. As a rule of thumb, the car needs the least capacity from the fuel pump at idle, so rough idle is almost never fuel related unless your O2 sensor is bad or the mixture is way off.
The first thing I'd do is warm it up, then, while it's idling rough, unplug the O2 sensor. If it smooths out then either the O2 sensor is bad or the fuel mix is way off.
When you pulled the plugs, what did they look like? Fouled?
A vacuum leak will have the most affect at idle and the least affect at higher loads.
If the idle changes with the application of starter fluid then you should pursue that.
Don't forget to check that the intake manifold is within the warpage specs when you pull it off.
Thomas
 

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yes I agree re dangerous so I use the bypass switch for say 5 seconds [I watch my SYSTEM press gauge till it gets to 70 psi] then turn it OFF - because as soon as I turn engine over I get power to pumps [via one relay] and soon as I stop starter motor a second later after instant start, the other relay runs the pumps - all seamless

so if I have a bingle the pumps will be off

but I WOULD be concerned if bloke has mixed the relays [they have the same base so CAN be mixed] so pump is on before cranking engine, not only in case of bingle but please look at wiring diag to see how all this works, ie it is the micro switch called the air flow sensor that controls these relays but only if the correct relays

I feel as Tech keeps saying that instead of playing in dark put in a fuel press gauge, in fact do as I did and put in two - one for SYSTEM press [should remain 70 psi] and one for CONTROL press [goes from say 10 psi on cold start to 50 psi when fully warm, bout 2 minutes later]

and may as well throw in a vacuum gauge - then you can SEE whats going on and no more guessing - and finally [see my garage dashboard modification] put in independent oxygen sensor and gauge

one final thing re vacuum - the WUR is badly named as it KEEPS controlling once warmed up and compensates for both vacuum and even altitude [very cunning] - but NONE of that works if the strainer is blocked and system press = control press at all times - you will know that if no power after a cold start
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I've found the problem, the transfer pump in the tank is not working. I should've checked this before; I've had difficulties in the past with it. I've ordered a new Master pump and strainer from Adavance Auto, has to ship from Tennesse 1-2 days time leaving on Monday.The high pressure pump has always made a racket so I didn't think anything of it.
 

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well normally the symptoms are different if it is the tank pump - normally you get "kangarooing" when you try to accelerate, ie because the main pump cavitates as there is negative suction pressure so it sucks air - but good that you found the problem

to explain further - the injectors are spring loaded to trigger at 45 psi [to hopefully hold pressure when engine off] so if pumps drop down from 70 psi they sort of keep the injectors going [but with blobs rather than spray] but once it hits 45 psi there is nothing so the whole car jumps till it recovers

please check that it is in fact the pump and not the wiring because there is a solder joint on top of that disc that screws into the tank to take the 12V supply down to the pump which is actually sitting IN the fuel

as I said elsewhere my volvo wreckers insisted on selling me a NEW tank pump rather than taking a chance on a second hand one

My volvo repairer told me the tank pumps play up in very hot weather if they are old - as he said whenever there is a heat wave they can rely on several volvos "bouncing" into the repair shop

another strange thing is my 264 is Sept 1976 and I have a March 1976 wreck which I mainly used to get parts for the fuel injection system - now it only had one pump ie the thing in the tank only held the level sensor and no pump

so obviously the main pump was a different design to work under negative suction so be very careful if you are getting a new main pump that you get the correct one

in my own case I got a reconditioned [exchange] main pump and its still going fine 11 years later so fingers crossed
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Doc, the car may have been running of the main pump for a while. When I put this car back on the road 1-1/2 yrs ago I pulled the tank pump nd found the little connection hose had rotted away and the tank strainer was deteriorated beyond use. I removed the strainer and replaced the hose and it's run that way ever since. Unfortunately the tank pump picked up some trash and was almost blocked completely off. I tested the pump directly connecting it to the battery(after the gas had evaporated) and it is definitley not working.
 

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so does it say it was a DIFFERENT setup with one pump only or are we to conclude that the tank pump was put in as a "fix" for the one pump system giving problems

I think it must have been different as when I was fitting the new tank pump I had trouble with that solder connection and my new tank pump was not getting any power - well I found that out before I got to the end of my driveway as the car was convulsing like a sick kangaroo so I would assume my main pump is a different design to the main pump that was used in the single pump setup
 

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QUOTE(242vabeach @ Jul 17 2005, 10:53 AM)I've found the problem, the transfer pump in the tank is not working. I should've checked this before; I've had difficulties in the past with it. I've ordered a new Master pump and strainer from Adavance Auto, has to ship from Tennesse 1-2 days time leaving on Monday.The high pressure pump has always made a racket so I didn't think anything of it.
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you have jogged my mind on that too - my orig pump itself made a racket but I think the noise remained with the reconditioned pump and I found it to be a problem with the mountings so you might check that

BUT I also remember another noise now and then from the strange piping thing inside the trunk just above the fuel fill point which is a valve type device intended to vent the fuel tank back to the engine intake [to keep environment non smelly]

when I mentioned this to my volvo agents he said there was a "service bulliton" on that device to say it did not work as intended and do not be alarmed if you hear a strange noise as it "lets off gas" on a hot day as pressure builds in fuel tank

hope that helps
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hey Doc, I finally got the new pump in yesterday. I fired it up and it was doing the same thing. Poor idle, would rev up with much coaxing and a bad miss while underway. I stood there and just ran over everything that could cause these problems...even pulled the injectors and replaced the O-rings again, one had been damaged the first time around. Nothing was making any kind of difference so I finally got out the long extension and started twisting the distributor around, as I advanced it it got better and better so I locked it down and took it out for a test drive. It was running better but not right, my girlfriend wanted some beer so I stopped at the grocery store. When I came out and started it up in the Food Lion parking lot the idle was racing and I practically flew out the entrance valves a pinging, took it home retarded the timing as best I could by ear. Now the thing runs like a scalded dog, spinning the wheels in 2nd gear. The only thing I can figure is the vacuum advance was stuck in the retarded postiion. Anyway it seems fine starts on the first turn of the key, I really wish I knew what was wrong. Also the HP fuel pump is no longer complaining, all I have to do now is find some R12 to get the AC working again...its illegal here. Do you have any experience converting to R-134a refrigerant?
 

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well I would set advance as per manual [I seem to remember 10 d btdc?] with a strobe light rather than by ear. At the same time you can check that both the centrifugal and vacuum advance are working by rev it up and check advance [maybe 30 deg] with and without vacuum connected

be aware there is vacuum to WUR as well [gives richer mixture when plant foot]

then when all done incl new plugs adjust idle to 900 rpm with that black plastic screw and it should go like a rocket

as for R12 I converted to new gas some 5 years ago as big fine if you recharge with R 12 - also in Oz you are not even allowed to top up with new refrig but some garages will do [mine needs top up once a year and I have found a bloke who does it for $40]
 

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and as USA and Oz are ONLY countries [beside Andorra???] to not sign Kyoto Protocol one has to wonder why there are any rules re refrigerants at all

besides farting cows do 100 times more damage so what the hey

where have all the flowers gone ...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I set it to 8 degrees BTDC per manual, was about 12 by ear not too bad. The vacuum and mechanical advance seem to be working and the car runs well. I did a little checking into the A/C and found conflicting reports about the permeability of the original hoses with 134-A. Some said that the mineral oil would soak into the hoses and prevent the gas from escaping and others said to replace the hoses,O-rings and compressor seal since the OEM viton seal would not be compatible with the ester based oils. Sounds like a lot $$ for a car that's worth about $300.00 US.
 

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Thats the nice/bad [catch 22] aspect of volvos - the car itself keeps going fairly well even if owner dont service it etc so it has minimum resale value but still goes

so most old volvos I see up here have windows wide open and a/c died years ago and owner has not considered it worth fixing

but other side of coin is if you look after a volvo and spend money when needed it is a nice car to own/drive but it will be greatly "overcapitalised" meaning it may be worth say 10 grand to you but if it was stolen you might be lucky to get $500 for insurance [based on market value]

the point is that once an owner does spend a bit of time and money there is no way he/she will be about to sell the car so it is generally hard to find a really good condition older volvo out there for sale
 
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