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> Engine Hic Up, Engine rpm falling for split seconds
Peters740
post Aug 14 2012, 10:00 AM
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Hello, we just came back from a 1200 mile trip with our 1987-740 gle wagon with manual transmission and had some trouble on the way with the engine rpm falling for split seconds. At any speed or any gear the engine will cut out two or three times in a row and then no problem for the next 30 or 60 minutes. Then the same thing happens again without warning or obvious cause. The first time it happened I thought that it would be dirty fuel. But after filling up multiple times that seems unlikely.
I went over the electrical wire connections and vacuum hoses with nothing obvious wrong.

Did any of you see this kind of problem before? Any suggestions what could be causing this and what I should check out next?

Thank you
Peter
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danielm85948
post Aug 14 2012, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 14 2012, 11:00 AM)
Hello, we just came back from a 1200 mile trip with our 1987-740 gle wagon with manual transmission and had some trouble on the way with the engine rpm falling for split seconds. At any speed or any gear the engine will cut out two or three times in a row and then no problem for the next 30 or 60 minutes. Then the same thing happens again without warning or obvious cause. The first time it happened I thought that it would be dirty fuel. But after filling up multiple times that seems unlikely.
I went over the electrical wire connections and vacuum hoses with nothing obvious wrong.

Did any of you see this kind of problem before? Any suggestions what could be causing this and what I should check out next?

Thank you
Peter
yes common trouble, just replace your fuel pump relay,behind the front ash tray is your fuse box you need to remove the two screws holding on your lighter box above it,and lift it away now you can see your relays, the middle relay ,on the left hand side,is your fuel pump relay,the solder breaks down inside due to the heat and the age.
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Peters740
post Aug 14 2012, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (danielm85948 @ Aug 14 2012, 08:51 PM)
yes common trouble, just replace your fuel pump relay,behind the front ash tray is your fuse box you need to remove the two screws holding on your lighter box above it,and lift it away now you can see your relays, the middle relay ,on the left hand side,is your fuel pump relay,the solder breaks down inside due to the heat and the age.


Hey thanks Daniel, I have it open. Couldn't find the two screws. Mine is just a snapon :-)

There are 12 relays together. Just to make sure I have the right one, is it the tall white one? We don't have a Volvo dealer in town so I need to see if my local Napa store can get it. Otherwise i need to mail order it. Anything else I need to watch out for?

Thanks for your help. This one really puzzled me.
Peter
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danielm85948
post Aug 14 2012, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 14 2012, 11:42 PM)
Attached File  100_9365.JPG ( 1.7MB ) Number of downloads: 5


Hey thanks Daniel, I have it open. Couldn't find the two screws. Mine is just a snapon :-)

There are 12 relays together. Just to make sure I have the right one, is it the tall white one? We don't have a Volvo dealer in town so I need to see if my local Napa store can get it. Otherwise i need to mail order it. Anything else I need to watch out for?

Thanks for your help. This one really puzzled me.
Peter

yes it is a tall white one on the left hand side, just google volvo relays ,and you will see the details the one in the middle,other thing to do clean your idle control valve that sits in a rubber cage under the inlet manifold,and if you have not already done so clean your crankcase breather ,a number of other things to do to stop break downs ,but do those first.other thing to do is take out one at a time those relays and clean under them, do not lift out that base if you do not know what to do ,as you can pull out wires under the base just remove them and clean them they look very dirty ,do the same to each one of your fuses.
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danielm85948
post Aug 14 2012, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 14 2012, 11:42 PM)
Attached File  100_9365.JPG ( 1.7MB ) Number of downloads: 5


Hey thanks Daniel, I have it open. Couldn't find the two screws. Mine is just a snapon :-)

There are 12 relays together. Just to make sure I have the right one, is it the tall white one? We don't have a Volvo dealer in town so I need to see if my local Napa store can get it. Otherwise i need to mail order it. Anything else I need to watch out for?

Thanks for your help. This one really puzzled me.
Peter

yes it is a tall white one on the left hand side, just google volvo relays ,and you will see the details the one in the middle,other thing to do clean your idle control valve that sits in a rubber cage under the inlet manifold,and if you have not already done so clean your crankcase breather ,a number of other things to do to stop break downs ,but do those first.other thing to do is take out one at a time those relays and clean under them, do not lift out that base if you do not know what to do ,as you can pull out wires under the base just remove them and clean them they look very dirty ,do the same to each one of your fuses.
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Peters740
post Aug 17 2012, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (danielm85948 @ Aug 15 2012, 12:37 AM)
yes it is a tall white one on the left hand side, just google volvo relays ,and you will see the details the one in the middle,other thing to do clean your idle control valve that sits in a rubber cage under the inlet manifold,and if you have not already done so clean your crankcase breather ,a number of other things to do to stop break downs ,but do those first.other thing to do is take out one at a time those relays and clean under them, do not lift out that base if you do not know what to do ,as you can pull out wires under the base just remove them and clean them they look very dirty ,do the same to each one of your fuses.


Excellent, thank you so much. I found a relay and it seems to be working fine now. Haven't had a chance to really hit the highway and try things out. But so far so good. We will be going on a 200 mile round trip next week and that will really show if it is working.

Thanks again Daniel, appreciate your suggestions and advice.
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Peters740
post Aug 28 2012, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 17 2012, 12:29 PM)
Excellent, thank you so much. I found a relay and it seems to be working fine now. Haven't had a chance to really hit the highway and try things out. But so far so good. We will be going on a 200 mile round trip next week and that will really show if it is working.

Thanks again Daniel, appreciate your suggestions and advice.



Well, I celebrated to soon. Took the car out for a 200+ mile trip and everything was fine the first 20 minutes. Then same thing happened again. No warning, no reason for it to happen.
Just driving along on the highway. RPM just drops for a fraction of a second two or three times in a row, and then no problems for 5 or 10 minutes when it happens again.
Any other suggestions? Please?
Peter
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danielm85948
post Aug 28 2012, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 28 2012, 11:43 AM)
Well, I celebrated to soon. Took the car out for a 200+ mile trip and everything was fine the first 20 minutes. Then same thing happened again. No warning, no reason for it to happen.
Just driving along on the highway. RPM just drops for a fraction of a second two or three times in a row, and then no problems for 5 or 10 minutes when it happens again.
Any other suggestions? Please?
Peter

if you look in the engine bay,you at the front of the car,behind your right shock is two multi plugs pull them apart look at the fitting you must push in the two tabs then pull apart,spray an electrical switch cleaner into each part of the plugs,clean them,now look in front of the right shock you will see a relay on a frame, that is your fuel injector relay try clean it,or you may need to change it,they are the must common relays to fail it is due to the heat what is called dry joints the solder opens up the relay then fails.take it you don't have a large bunch of keys hanging on the ignition do you .

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Peters740
post Aug 28 2012, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (danielm85948 @ Aug 28 2012, 01:56 PM)
if you look in the engine bay,you at the front of the car,behind your right shock is two multi plugs pull them apart look at the fitting you must push in the two tabs then pull apart,spray an electrical switch cleaner into each part of the plugs,clean them,now look in front of the right shock you will see a relay on a frame, that is your fuel injector relay try clean it,or you may need to change it,they are the must common relays to fail it is due to the heat what is called dry joints the solder opens up the relay then fails.take it you don't have a large bunch of keys hanging on the ignition do you .


Sorry, what do you mean large bunch of keys? I have one ignition key with a metal flash drive on the key ring I use all the time.

I see only one multi plug on that side, just in front of the right shock. As shown in the attached picture. It is in a tight spot between the power steering reservoir and the fender. There is what could be a relay attached to the fender just beside and next to the lower half of the airfilter. As shown in the second picture.
It doesn't look like what you are describing. I need to take out the PS reservoir to get to the plug. It is really stuck together and my hands don't fit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If that little contraption on the fender is a relay the airfilter housing needs to be removed to get to it.
Could you let me know? I really appreciate your help and patience with me. Thanks again......Peter
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Attached File  100_9383.JPG ( 1.54MB ) Number of downloads: 6
 
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danielm85948
post Aug 28 2012, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 28 2012, 03:27 PM)
Sorry, what do you mean large bunch of keys? I have one ignition key with a metal flash drive on the key ring I use all the time.

I see only one multi plug on that side, just in front of the right shock. As shown in the attached picture. It is in a tight spot between the power steering reservoir and the fender. There is what could be a relay attached to the fender just beside and next to the lower half of the airfilter. As shown in the second picture.
It doesn't look like what you are describing. I need to take out the PS reservoir to get to the plug. It is really stuck together and my hands don't fit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If that little contraption on the fender is a relay the airfilter housing needs to be removed to get to it.
Could you let me know? I really appreciate your help and patience with me. Thanks again......Peter

it may be due to you having a left hand drive car ,that they are on the left hand shock can you show me the other side,as for your pictures ,first one that white plastic tie holding on the cable just behind the right shock looks like tape on it remove that tie see,if you have two multi plugs under the tape,but it may be due to you having a left hand drive,the parts you are looking for are on the other side,the second picture you think is a relay behind your air box,on the side wall is in fact your ignition control module that control power to your coil and distributor and gives information to your ECU the cars brain so leave that.as for asking you about a bunch of keys on the ignition with a bunch of them the key can turn in your ignition making it seen your turning the car off, need only a very small amount of movement to do that.remember you are standing at the front of the car,that is why i say left and right.

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Peters740
post Aug 29 2012, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (danielm85948 @ Aug 28 2012, 11:13 PM)
it may be due to you having a left hand drive car ,that they are on the left hand shock can you show me the other side,as for your pictures ,first one that white plastic tie holding on the cable just behind the right shock looks like tape on it remove that tie see,if you have two multi plugs under the tape,but it may be due to you having a left hand drive,the parts you are looking for are on the other side,the second picture you think is a relay behind your air box,on the side wall is in fact your ignition control module that control power to your coil and distributor and gives information to your ECU the cars brain so leave that.as for asking you about a bunch of keys on the ignition with a bunch of them the key can turn in your ignition making it seen your turning the car off, need only a very small amount of movement to do that.remember you are standing at the front of the car,that is why i say left and right.


Hi Daniel, the white plastic tie was added by the original owner. He added a fuse to the starting wire because of start motor problems. I have since cleaned the start motor inside and that has cured that problem.

I have found the two multi plugs on the passenger side of the car. They were under the support beam that goes from the firewall to the shock housing. I could have seen that the first time if I had paid better attention. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/57.gif) I also found a relay attached to the Anti Freeze reservoir. It is Volvo 899931 1323592-1. But searching on that number it appears to be a noise suppression relay.
Is that the one?

I will experiment with the key later today when I have a chance to drive the car and see if it interferes with the engine if I wiggle the key.
Thanks again.
Peter
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danielm85948
post Aug 29 2012, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 29 2012, 11:15 AM)
Hi Daniel, the white plastic tie was added by the original owner. He added a fuse to the starting wire because of start motor problems. I have since cleaned the start motor inside and that has cured that problem.

I have found the two multi plugs on the passenger side of the car. They were under the support beam that goes from the firewall to the shock housing. I could have seen that the first time if I had paid better attention. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/57.gif) I also found a relay attached to the Anti Freeze reservoir. It is Volvo 899931 1323592-1. But searching on that number it appears to be a noise suppression relay.
Is that the one?

I will experiment with the key later today when I have a chance to drive the car and see if it interferes with the engine if I wiggle the key.
Thanks again.
Peter

yes what you call noise suppression relay is your fuel injection relay ,when they break down your injectors ,will not open and close when they should. but clean both the multi plugs as i said.
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Peters740
post Aug 30 2012, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (danielm85948 @ Aug 29 2012, 01:03 PM)
yes what you call noise suppression relay is your fuel injection relay ,when they break down your injectors ,will not open and close when they should. but clean both the multi plugs as i said.


Well Daniel, well it didn't work. I cleaned and put e-grease on the two multi plugs as well as on the contacts for the relay. They only showed a little dust around the contacts and no visible corrosion.
The first thing I noticed after starting up the car is where is my fan? As long as I can remember when starting up the car the fan spins really fast for about two or three minutes. So cleaning these contacts did make a difference. Reading on the internet about this Noise Suppresion relay it has two functions. Cooling fan as well as radio noise. But you say it is a fuel injection relay? Searching on the part number only shows this noise suppression relay. Could it be somewhere else?

It looks like it could still be the relay. It probally still is the original that came with the car. 25 years and 200K miles. I am going to order a new one and hope it will cure the hiccups and hopefully it will last as long as the old one.
I played with the key a little bit and I don't think there is a problem there. To make sure I will take out the mechanism and grease it. Any suggestions what is the best kind?
Thanks for all your help. I have learned a lot.
Peter
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danielm85948
post Aug 30 2012, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 30 2012, 04:51 PM)
Well Daniel, well it didn't work. I cleaned and put e-grease on the two multi plugs as well as on the contacts for the relay. They only showed a little dust around the contacts and no visible corrosion.
The first thing I noticed after starting up the car is where is my fan? As long as I can remember when starting up the car the fan spins really fast for about two or three minutes. So cleaning these contacts did make a difference. Reading on the internet about this Noise Suppresion relay it has two functions. Cooling fan as well as radio noise. But you say it is a fuel injection relay? Searching on the part number only shows this noise suppression relay. Could it be somewhere else?

It looks like it could still be the relay. It probally still is the original that came with the car. 25 years and 200K miles. I am going to order a new one and hope it will cure the hiccups and hopefully it will last as long as the old one.
I played with the key a little bit and I don't think there is a problem there. To make sure I will take out the mechanism and grease it. Any suggestions what is the best kind?
Thanks for all your help. I have learned a lot.
Peter

that same number for your noise relay as you call them over there in your country,that relay number is used for your injectors that is the passenger side as you found,there is two of them the other relay is for your fan same number on the relay,i do not like grease on electrical contacts you are better with the electrical cleaner ,why due to the fact that as it is e grease ,you can get a short as power can go through the grease to the next contact or earth ,i would say clean it off ,the electrical cleaner is better just spray and dry,as for your ignition switch, it is the electrical part of the switch that fails not the ignition part of the switch were the key goes in, but as for your noise suppression relay, it is nothing to do with the radio, you can get static that relay stops it so your injectors work better, and your relay is connected to your cars ECU the cars brain, telling the injectors to open, the relay for your fan should be on the side wall in the engine bay.

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volvo dan
post Sep 3 2012, 03:20 PM
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I had a 1988 Volvo 740GLE and intermittently, I would have trouble starting it and am wondering if you've check the Hall Sensor? I know your problem sound different but could be related. The Hall Sensor is actually part of the distributor. Mine would act up depending upon temperature. It's a thought. I sold that car with 225K on it and still think it's one of the best cars I ever owned!
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CATransplant
post Sep 4 2012, 10:18 AM
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QUOTE (Peters740 @ Aug 28 2012, 11:43 AM)
Well, I celebrated to soon. Took the car out for a 200+ mile trip and everything was fine the first 20 minutes. Then same thing happened again. No warning, no reason for it to happen.
Just driving along on the highway. RPM just drops for a fraction of a second two or three times in a row, and then no problems for 5 or 10 minutes when it happens again.
Any other suggestions? Please?
Peter


This could also be a failing crankshaft position sensor or a failing radio suppression relay. Since it's intermittent, it's difficult to know if it's fuel or ignition related. My 1991 740 wagon had the same issue. After replacing the fuel pump and fuel pump relay, the problem continued, and finally turned out to be the crankshaft position sensor, which I discovered only after the issue became permanent rather than intermittent.
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Peters740
post Oct 2 2012, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (volvo dan @ Sep 3 2012, 03:20 PM)
I had a 1988 Volvo 740GLE and intermittently, I would have trouble starting it and am wondering if you've check the Hall Sensor? I know your problem sound different but could be related. The Hall Sensor is actually part of the distributor. Mine would act up depending upon temperature. It's a thought. I sold that car with 225K on it and still think it's one of the best cars I ever owned!


Hi Volvo Dan, thanks for your reply. Sorry I haven't checked the board lately and did not answer earlier. I waited for VLVworld to email or call me back for over two weeks. I finally found their phone number and after three tries finally got someone on the line who told me they don't stock the noise suppression relay.
So I am now waiting for my order from Volvowholsesaleparts.

The problem is still there and just this morning I had to go to the other side of town and it was worse then ever. I was afraid the engine was going to quit altogether. I made it home OK.
So with temperatures now being around the 60's it does not seem temperature related. Can you tell me a little more about this HALL sensor? Where is it located and how can I test it. Because you know I can keep on replacing parts but if I can do some test and have a better idea of what the reason is it would make for a more succesfull process. :-)
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Peters740
post Oct 2 2012, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (CATransplant @ Sep 4 2012, 10:18 AM)
This could also be a failing crankshaft position sensor or a failing radio suppression relay. Since it's intermittent, it's difficult to know if it's fuel or ignition related. My 1991 740 wagon had the same issue. After replacing the fuel pump and fuel pump relay, the problem continued, and finally turned out to be the crankshaft position sensor, which I discovered only after the issue became permanent rather than intermittent.


Hi CATransplant, you too thank you for your reply and sorry for not replying sooner. I really appreciate you trying to help.

Yes you are absolutely right. It is very confusing. It could be either fuel or ignition. To me it really feels like there is a loose contact somewhere but yes it also could be fuel.

Can you tell me a little more about this crankshaft position sensor. Where is it located and can I test it somehow? I hate to get stuck somewhere and sure hope I can find a way to have a definite cause for this problem.


Ps: can someone tell me if there is a setting where I can be notified when someone responds to this query?
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Peters740
post Dec 4 2012, 01:13 PM
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Well I guess it is time to give an update. After more then three months it looks like we have the problem solved.

To recap, back in August we had trouble with the engine in our 740 (manual/non turbo) "hiccupping" Here is the steps we took to resolve the problem.

-First we replaced the fuel pump relay. Did not help.
-Next we replaced the noise suppression relay. Did not help.
-Next we went over every connection we could see and cleaned and applied E-grease.
-Replaced the two negative battery cables.
-Ordered over $200 worth of parts. Of which some arrived within two weeks and others took over 6 weeks to arrive and cost 40% of the order in shipping and extra charges.
(ps: Anyone know a reliable supplier. One who does ship fast, answers emails and has all parts and does NOT use USmail)
-Replaced brushes and cleaned starter.
-Replaced air filter, PCV, Sparkplugs, Sparkplug cables, Distributor and Rotor.

Well the very last part did the trick. The rotor looked fine on the outside but we could not get it to come of. We actually broke it to pieces to come of and we found it was severally rusted inside. After cleaning and applying a little E-grease on the shaft before putting the new one on seems to have solved the hiccup problem.

Two new problems are still to be solved. The service light stays on for about 60 seconds after every start.
And the other problem is the RPM fluctuates. When first starting the engine in the morning it will do about 900, after 20 seconds it goes to 1400, and after warming up it shows 1100 rpm at one stop and at the next traffic light it might show 1400 rpm again. Any suggestions what to do?

Appreciate all the replies I have gotten these last couple of months. Thank you all very much for your time and effort to help me resolve this problem.
Sincerely
Peter
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